After debating with many theists I have heard tons of arguments. Many theists bring excellent points to the cultural affects of religion and one main concept; free will. I never had a solid response for the concept of free will. I'm an atheist, and all the theists tell me that it's a personal choice to do so. But to me the concept of free will is perverted in the Biblical sense. I'd like to address a few points. Please keep in mind that all these ideas are under the basis that the Christian God is real and the concept of Hell is real. (Note: nearly all religions have this same belief system. One wonders how many Hells exist. Is there a Hindu hell, a Muslim hell, a Christian hell?)
What is free will? I looked it up. Free will is the ability to exercise control over your actions and decisions. In other words, you have the free will to scream a curse word in public. Nobody could stop you from doing that. The punishment for those actions and the silliness of it would probably prevent you from doing it however. But that is the idea that free will exists. At any time, you can make a decision with regards to everything you control. You can intentionally cut your hand, drop a box on your foot or even crash your car. Of course these decisions are irrational and pointless. They would be painful and serve no purpose at all. But free will extends beyond just physical actions. I can choose to believe that Jesus was born a virgin. I can choose to believe that the world is 6,000 years old. These decisions would not be judged at all. In fact, they would be accepted in our culture. But the ideas presented in the Bible about free will are perverted. In terms of the Bible, there is not free will, but rather 'conditional will'.
The punishments for non-belief that are presented in the Bible are clear. If you don't believe, in blind faith, that Jesus died for your sins, you go to Hell. There is no way around that. One might wonder why a just, loving, caring entity would send his children to Hell for such a belief. Certainly he doesn't send us to Hell for trivial matters. I mean, you have to mess up pretty bad to be sent for eternal suffering. Forever, I think, is a long time. So if you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins, I'm sent to Hell forever. In this sense, free will is very perverted. How can one make a rational decision when the consequences are so clear? If I were to tell you that you can either believe in pink unicorns or I'm going to burn your flesh off your body, what you would you tell me? Would you rationally think there are no pink unicorns and stand up to me? I'm going to burn your body. Most would TELL me that pink unicorns are real, but actually believe something different. God has given us the same option. You either believe in Jesus and the Bible or he's going to send you to Hell forever. What kind of option is that? That's not faith, that is torture. Just as you don't really have faith in the pink unicorns, your faith in God is merely on the condition that you're going to Heaven.
How selfish and petty is that?
How is it possible that Christians tell me I have free will? There is nothing free about the decision. You have two options. Believe, in a harmless sense, that Jesus died for you. Or, you can deny all of this and be damned to Hell. I cannot comprehend what kind of sick entity God is. Any human that presented this choice to another would be seen as sick, cruel, and unfair.
Why is it that you have no problem believing in God? I will tell you why. It has been made so easy! Our entire culture is based upon Christianity. You can attend a Church on Sunday, be forgiven for your sins and then believe that you're going to live forever in Heaven. That is amazingly comforting. If I believed, I have no doubt that is where my thoughts would end. There is no need to believe anything else. God is going to save me, I'm going to Heaven. Awesome. Most people don't want to believe in anything else. They turn their eyes from the truth and deny science. I honestly believe that they want to believe all this based on their selfish ambitions, not true faith.
But it's not about the comfort, is it? It doesn't end there. To me, the truth matters. I can understand that many people don't care. They have a mental list of things to do, and the worship of God is simply a box to check on my path to eternal bliss in Heaven. I cannot make any sense of this perversion.
Aren't you interested in the truth? Doesn't it bother you that you may be wrong? Can one live the fact that God isn't real? Would it ruin your life? Or simply your selfish ambitions of eternal life?
5 comments:
But what if you do not believe in a heaven, hell, or afterlife? Then you naturally would not be bound by those factors in making that decision. A person ultimately makes the choice independently whether or not he believes in a heaven, hell, afterlife, Supreme Being etc. Then when that person studies into a certain religion with certain doctrines that is when he is open to the concepts of a heaven and hell. For example you are not bound by that analogy (God pointing a gun to you and telling you to believe in Him or else you go in Hell) simply because you do not believe those entities exist. Besides, if that logic held any validity, then wouldn’t you be a Christian?
My faith in a god or Supreme Being comes from factors found in this world. Personable traits such as emotion, love, hate, sorrow, and the desire to worship a higher being or oneself personally tells me that there had to be some type of unworldly influence on the making of the universe. After all, doesn’t a design need a designer? We cannot comprehend how long a Supreme Being could exist, due to the limitations in human logic. Correct me if I am wrong, but if a system must have a beginning and an end, then the universe must have a beginning and an end. It could not have been here since the beginning of time (which is not comprehensible to our human logic) and then have an end. (As proponents of the Big Bang predict with the subject of antimatter.)
Using your same logic, it is much much easier to argue on the side of Atheism than the side of Christianity. Christianity has compiled for years and years complicated doctrines and history; because of these complex doctrines, historical documents, and historical figures, Christian Theologians have to defend past day claims with modern day logic. That is why modern-day scientists have taken a more atheistic approach to their studies, simply because they lack the capability to believe in the unseen (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing). Flawed roles have been played in the religion and more often than not erroneous people wore the shoes of authority in the Christian faith. Because of these irrational mistakes, it is often hard for any Theologian to argue certain points simply because Atheists have such an easy argument to present (some of the more notable mistakes of the Christian body). However, it is irrelevant to state that those organizations inspired by the Christian faith represent the present body of Christianity.
Atheism is simply the absence of any belief system, or more so the questioning of the existing belief systems held by different societies. Atheism does not contain any doctrines, beliefs, or any systematic approach to religion. Instead, Atheism is merely the questioning of other faiths and demonstrates an inability to believe in any of the present day belief systems. (By humanistic logic, scientific method, or simply the inability to believe in the unseen.)
As long as I am inspired, I will continue to post.
Free will is bound to earthly limitations is it not? With the presupposition that God, heaven, and hell exist, how do you have any say in what goes on in those realms? You have the freedom to make whatever choices you want on this earth but beyond that what connection do you have to the spiritual realm if such a place exists?
But with the presupposition that God exists, you are just a tiny insignificant human. Merely a small creation in an infinite time span. God can choose your fate because he is God. You act like you have some sort of right to be here on this earth, but the fact is that if you believe in God you believe that he created you and ultimately knows what is best for you. Hell was not created for humans it was created for the angels who were cast out of heaven. Hell became our fate when we decided to disobey God. With wrong actions come punishments. You can choose however you wish to think it's cruel or not, but either way you aren't going to change God's mind.
Here's the thing that I don't understand. There is nothing you have to do to be saved other than believe! It's not difficult, you don't have to work for it, it's so simple and so easy. It's a free gift! You say how cruel God is for not giving you a choice but you have a choice! You have a choice between living the way you wish and if hell exists once you die you end up there. Or you have the choice to take 1 minute out of your life to accept the gift that is so freely given by a God whom whether you want to believe it or not does actually love you. If God just made the choice for you what kind of love would that be. Would you force your human child to love you, or better yet could you? Of course not!
And I just want to make something clear. I think that you believe that Christians are somehow completely opposed to science and learning and understanding of this world but that's not the case. I love math and science. I've gone all the way through calculus 3, I'm in physics 2 in college right now learning about electromagnetism, circuits, magnetic flux, induction etc. I LOVE science and I find it very interesting and enjoy doing it. If this is your generalization of Christians I hope you realize this is not true for most of them. Just because we disagree on some scientific theories does not mean that we are opposed to science.
To Mr. Dellinger:
"There is nothing you have to do to be saved other than believe!"
Wow! What a concept. But it isn't that simple. That is not the choice that is presented to us. I make decisions based on evidence and reason and logic. There is no evidence to believe in God, so why should I subscribe to religious texts without proof of their validity? If I were to proclaim myself a Christian, I would also subscribe to creation, the trinity, Heaven & Hell, and various other beliefs. It's not as if all I need to do is say that I believe in God and I'm good. There is more to Christianity than that, even if the majority finish their thoughts at that point. Again, this statement exemplifies the Christian faith. Believe if for no other reason than the possibility that we're right! I'm sorry if Pascals Wager is the best argument that you've got.
I'm not the one who needs proof to claim theistic agnosticism. I don't need proof to claim that I don't believe. We are all born atheists before culture teaches us to be theists. You're the one who needs proof to believe. The default position is not Christianity, but agnosticism.
"Or you have the choice to take 1 minute out of your life to accept the gift that is so freely given by a God"
And Allah has given you the same gift, along with Zeus and Thor and the thousand other Gods. If you're wrong about your God, you're going straight to Hell too, sir. You have no logical reason for your Christian beliefs other than where you sit; the United States. You have no idea if your God is the right one anymore than I know. You're taking your bets that Jesus is the son of God. But you could be wrong, along with myself. Zeus may indeed be the deity who created the Universe. In that case, both of us spend eternity in Hell.
"Would you force your child to love you, or better yet could you?"
No. And bad parents don't earn the love of their children, do they?
"I think that you believe that Christians are somehow completely opposed to science and learning and understanding of this world but that's not the case."
That is not my viewpoint, and if that was communicated, I apologize. I am simply saying that the basics of Christianity teach us to NOT investigate evolution, the Big Bang, or other theories. I don't see why it is frowned upon to learn about other viewpoints. Like I said before, agnosticism is the default position. We should do everything to educate ourselves about the possibility of being wrong. That is what science teaches us. Religion doesn't allow for this possibility. Have you ever heard a preacher state that he might be incorrect about God? No, of course not. But science has to be 100% open to the possibility of being incorrect.
To Mr. Houston
"But what if you do not believe in a heaven, hell, or afterlife? Then you naturally would not be bound by those factors in making that decision."
That sounds valid; but there is a problem. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. So if that is true, then the concepts are still very real. Hell is a possibility for my belief. Of course I don't think is likely at all, but it is a possibility. Even if my decision has already been made, this argument still applies to every religious person. The fact that children are fed Heaven and Hell is something that disgusts me, as it should every human on this planet. A child cannot comprehend Heaven nor Hell, so why do we torture their underdeveloped brains with falsehoods? It's not fair to the child to present such a biased opinion. Once you believe in a conceptual Hell, you cannot make rational decisions about your faith. Period.
"Besides, if that logic held any validity, then wouldn’t you be a Christian?"
Again, not valid. Why aren't you a Muslim? The threats presented are similar, if not much worse. Their religion demands that you literally DIE for your non-belief in their God. Is your faith that strong? According to those people, both you and I are going to Hell. If they are correct, you've wagered on the wrong God.
"After all, doesn’t a design need a designer? "
Yes, who did design your designer again?
"Correct me if I am wrong, but if a system must have a beginning and an end, then the universe must have a beginning and an end."
Don't know you told you that, as your beliefs contradict that completely. Why cannot the universe itself be infinite? Could the mass of this universe have been here forever?
"Atheists have such an easy argument to present "
Yeah, being right is generally difficult. ;)
But that is missing the point in my logic. It is only real if you believe it exists, due to the fact that it is unobservable; you have to judge whether or not the entity exists. If you look at all the different religions, the definitions of heaven and hell differ; even if you believe in one hell, it may be different compared to the hell of any other given religion or belief system. Despite whether or not hell or heaven is proved to be real, one still has the absolute control over whether or not he believes in those concepts or not.
The argument you are making in this is very ambiguous; your argument states that if one does not believe in a hell, the possibility of hell still exists and thus he is bound to make a irrational decision to believe based on that possibility? It’s either a person believes in a heaven and hell in the first place- and if so, which of the 1000 definitions does he pick? So the argument stating that the belief system of a heaven and hell alone influences a person to become a Christian is flawed- besides, most humans become Christians in order to dynamically change their life- not out of fear of a heaven or hell. If I am to burn in a hell so be it; regardless, I think one’s mind set must be to live this life to the fullest.
Again, not valid. Why aren't you a Muslim? The threats presented are similar, if not much worse. Their religion demands that you literally DIE for your non-belief in their God. Is your faith that strong? According to those people, both you and I are going to Hell. If they are correct, you've wagered on the wrong God.”
But the Hell you are stating is the presumed Christian hell. A person makes a decision based on the faith of a given Supreme Being, not off the basis of fear by a hell of any religion.
Yes, who did design your designer again?
The answer is irrational and incomprehensible. We do not know because we are talking about a subject that is not bound by our physical or mental limitations, thinking, or logic.
Don't know you told you that, as your beliefs contradict that completely. Why cannot the universe itself be infinite? Could the mass of this universe have been here forever?
I don’t understand what you are attempting to communicate- but if the universe had an infinite beginning (which I think you said you believed) then shouldn’t it have an infinite end? Again, look at the Big Bang and the theory of Antimatter- according to this our universe will eventually collapse.
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